wholly jesus [an interview with mark foreman]

Some guys just seem to get it. But let me back up a little bit first…

When studying Bible history it doesn’t (or shouldn’t) take long to pick up on some cultural differences between the ancient Eastern culture of the Hebrews and the modern Western culture that we now live in. Yet so many people read the Bible as if it were written by and to a modern Western culture. Doing so causes us to miss the point of much of the Holy Scripture. The sad thing is that too often this happens in churches all across America.

So it’s special when you meet someone who not only knows about these differences, but also understands how to apply them to our modern lives.

Mark Foreman is one of those dudes.

Mark is the author of a new book called Wholly Jesus: His Surprising Approach to Wholeness and Why It Matters Today. He’s the lead pastor at North Coast Calvary in Carlsbad, CA, and an associate professor at Bethel Seminary San Diego. He’s also the father of Jon and Tim Foreman of the band Switchfoot.

I recently had the opportunity to chat with Mark about his book, and you can catch all of that interview right here…

What do you think about what Mark shared? Is his challenge something that you’re up for? Is it something that you even agree with? What steps do you need to take today to make the kind of changes that he talked about?

Bonus links: You heard Mark share about his favorite Swtichfoot song, and many of you probably also enjoy my personal favorite… Dare You To Move.

theology and the simchurch [a chat with douglas estes]

There are lots of opinions on how things like social networking and the virtual world are changing the church. It doesn’t take long to to see how people are using online resources to search for meaning and connection. With this shift towards using technology, there are lots of ideas about how it all affects our theology.

Recently I had the chance to catch up with Douglas Estes, the author of SimChurch: Being the Church in the Virtual World. And with the opportunity to ask him any question that I wanted to, I decided to dig into this question about how our theology may (or may not) be affected by all of this technology.  So here is what I asked him, and his response…

BibleDude.net: One of the things that I notice quite a bit within online Christian communities is that ‘denomination’ does not seem as important as the fact that we are all followers of Christ. How do you see the growth of online church affecting our theology? Does it cause us to water down our theology, or does it force us to think more about what we believe?

Douglas Estes: Thanks for the question. It’s not an easy one … you win the blog-tour award for ‘stump the author’ … so due to the complexity of it, I’ll address a few deeper issues, with the final paragraph being a summarizing answer to your questions.

My experience with online Christian communities and internet churches gels with what you’re saying—people that attend and take part in virtual churches tend to do so for reasons other than a denominational label or a theological stance. This is a generalization, I can think of exceptions, but like most generalizations it is generally true. However, we do have a chicken-or-egg issue here: does the internet push church culture to be less focused on denominationalism/theological issues, or is church culture pushing churchgoing internet interaction to be less focused on denominationalism/theological issues? Said another way, people may assume that online church downplays denominationalism, but you could also argue that online churches are simply reflective of church culture at large, which has increasingly been downplaying denominationalism in recent years. I know this doesn’t come any closer to answering your question, but I do feel we need to be honest and say that while the internet may encourage theological fluidity, it also may just be reflecting or facilitating a larger trend in society.

This philosophical issue aside, “How do I see the growth of online church affecting our theology?” I think it will depend on several constants and several variables (but the variables are outside of our ability to know at this point). Let’s consider one constant. We all know that there are sections of the church that are committed to (Christian) ecumenicism, even radical tear-down-the-walls types of ecumenicism. There are also sections of the church that are committed to what they might refer to as ‘doctrinal purity.’ And, of course, people in the middle. As each of these groups increasingly take to the internet, they’ll take their viewpoints with them. I won’t be surprised if in the near future some virtual churches have strict limits on membership while others have little or no limit. (Remember: While there is a lot of debate about the internet (and technology) changing us, let’s not forget that it’s not Prometheus’ fire or a genie in a bottle; we made the internet (Al Gore jokes aside), and we made it in our image. So while we are shaped by technology to a degree, we shape it a lot more than we may want to admit). This is one example of a constant (in this case, human nature) that we know to be true. Another constant is that theology must always adapt to the issues of the day or it will grow stale and die. So we know that the growth of internet campuses must—by its very nature—stretch our theology, and it should do so. There are other constants, but these are two of the most important.

There are also some variables that affect this discussion, such as: Will censorship become a part of the internet, and will some theological viewpoints be censored (such as maybe an internet church that believes in spanking children censored by a government or corporation)? How much will the internet really level the communication playing field (right now, it seems unlikely that a rural church could have a successful internet campus as compared to a McMegachurch)? Will the internet church become an option of the status quo so quickly as to not really challenge the church as a whole (or will we read the book, The 5 Things Virtual Church Can Teach Your Church and be done with it?)

Since this is a blog not a book, let me wrap up with your final two questions: “Does online church cause us to water down our theology, or does it force us to think more about what we believe?” I know this is an unexpected answer but, simply put: No, for most people it does not cause them to water down their theology, and no, for most people it won’t force them to think more about what they believe. The reason I answer this way (a bit pessimistically) is that for people who care about theology, the internet will amplify that by giving them access to people who also care about theology. For people who don’t care much about theology or denominational issues in the real world; they won’t care too much about it in the virtual world, either. Yes, I know that there is a great deal of concern about ‘googling for God’ or consulting Wikipedia on matters of faith but this is a part of the discerning process of humanity since the Fall. Yes, I also know that many internet campuses tend to be less focused on preaching and teaching than a brick and mortar church, but this mostly has to do with the current state of technology. In the end, the depth of theology found in online churches will mostly depend on the depth of its leaders and people (same as with physical churches today). For most people, online church won’t challenge them to think more about what they believe unless they are already open to that challenge. (Of course, the online church can challenge the status quo of church a great deal, and in a powerful way—but it will only challenge those people who are open to the challenge). Ultimately, the internet is a synthetic place/amplifying medium that simply reflects the people who live there/make use of it. Online churches are real churches that exist in synthetic space, and its people will act accordingly.

 

For more from Douglas Estes:

SimChurch: Being the Church in the Virtual World
by Douglas Estes

The virtual church is here, and it’s poised for explosive growth as a generation comfortable with virtual worlds cultivates faith communities online. What is the virtual church, and what possibilities and concerns does it create? This must-read book opens a dialog no culturally aware Christian passionate about the church and evangelism can afford to miss.

 

 

 

For more from other folks on this blog tour:

• Returned Sheep
• The Digital Sanctuary
• Church Relevance
• Mark D. Roberts
• Tall Skinny Kiwi
• Captain’s Blog

the monkey and the fish

A typhoon stranded a monkey on an island. In a protected place on the shore, while waiting for the raging waters to recede, he spotted a fish swimming against the current. It seemed to the monkey that the fish was struggling and needed assistance. Being of kind heart, the monkey resolved to help the fish.

A tree leaned precariously over the spot where the fish seemed to be struggling. At considerable risk to himself, the monkey moved far out on a limb, reached down, and snatched the fish from the waters. Scurrying back to the safety of his shelter, he carefully laid the fish on dry ground. For a few moments, the fish showed excitement but soon settled into a peaceful rest.

— An Old Eastern Parable

Doesn’t this sound a lot like evangelism in the church today? That’s one of the main points that Pastor and Author Dave Gibbons makes in his new book The Monkey and the Fish: Liquid Leadership for a Third-Culture Church. (Keep reading…   you’ll have an opportunity to get some free stuff…)

Gibbons makes the case that if the church wants to succeed in reaching other cultures (whether it is a third-world nation living in extreme poverty, or the college student that is searching for meaning while hanging out at the local pub) then we shouldn’t expect to always bring them into our preconceived ideas of what ‘church’ is, and think that they will be better off.

Check out this video of Gibbons sharing about this idea of being a ‘third culture’ church and sending out a team to build a church in another community…

YouTube Video :: Video :: Dave Gibbons: Third Culture

Recently, we’ve had the opportunity to ask Gibbons some questions, and he’s taken the time to answer them. Here are the results of that discussion…

BibleDude: What would you say to someone who has a hard time with the idea of ‘taking church’ into certain places (such as bars or other ‘questionable’ locations) because they see it as compromising their integrity?

Gibbons: Perhaps they shouldn’t go. I wouldn’t want to persuade them to do something that’s “compromise” in their eyes. It wouldn’t be good for them or the people living in those marginal spaces. 

BibleDude (submitted by Paul Cheezem): How do we get the church to embrace a third culture outlook when too many of the church have yet to embrace a first culture outlook? Which is to say, too many of the church are bogged down in a fantasy culture that they believe existed a half-century ago, even though it was not real even then.

Gibbons: Yes, it’s definitely the work of the Holy Spirit! To ask people to enter into pain and suffering, eat foods they don’t like, hang out with people that make you uncomfortable is counter-cultural. I would say the key is for the one who does get it to start living out the third culture life. Personally, before the movement became church-wide, I felt God telling me I had to live it out more intentionally. So my family and I moved out to Bangkok. It starts with leadership and prayer.  As one engages real suffering and poverty, clarity emerges. For many in the first culture, it’s hard to shift. It doesn’t have to be either/or. My philosophy of life is about fueling the fringe and honoring the past.

As you live out third culture, invite others with you on the journey. I still remember taking a group of friends with me on a third culture vision trip about 5 years ago. We have never been the same. The impact now goes beyond my own circle of friends to people all over the world. 

BibleDude (submitted by Mary Ditmars): What are some of the major difficulties you have encountered in third culture church planting and how have you dealt with them?

Gibbons: Some difficulties I’ve encountered in dealing with third culture church planting are:

1. Tendency to fall back into default habits, findings, and processes rather than seeing what God is doing or desires to do in the given context He has called us to.
2. Lack of letting the indigenous, local leaders lead.
3. Unsustainable models of church planting.
4. Western constructs and forms that don’t engage the local culture.
5. A focus on the non-essentials. Most of the world has no idea about post-modern, emergent, mega-churches, or simple churches.
6. Loving people with strings. We ask people to listen to a sermon before we feed them.

What we try to do in our contexts around the world . . .

1. Listen and Learn.
   Instead of resorting to default methodologies, forms and diatribes, it’s better to go as a learner and listen. In the west, especially if you’re more an entrepreneurial type pastor, you want to ramp it up as fast as you can. A good thing to do is to first focus on relationship, and let the vision emerge. As one gets to know the locals and their culture you affirm what God is doing and support the initiatives of these amazing leaders God already has developed.
2. Sustainability.
   When you start churches, it’s good to think long term, holistic and sustainable. Often I’ve found churches in the West indiscriminately give to missional enterprises that they actually hurt the recipient, causing them to be overly dependent upon them. I’ve noticed this particularly as we have dealt with the work in India. Third culture organizations we work with are required to move towards self-sustainability. 
3. Multiple forms and styles.
   I’ve noticed that we gravitate towards arguing over forms or styles in America. Is it emergent or boomer? Y or X? Mega church or simple church? Missional church or purpose-driven? The reality is all of the above! It all depends on the context, culture, calling and even the leader herself.
4. Love without strings.
   This takes the mindset to know that God does the converting we do the loving and serving.

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So what other questions do you have? Throughout the day (for one day only), Dave Gibbons will be stopping by to answer other questions that you post in the comments here. What do you want to know about being third culture either locally or around the world?

And I will be giving  away a free copy of the book to one random commenter. So share your thoughts below even if you don’t have a question for Dave.

If you want to read more, then you can also download a free chapter of the book or purchase the book in the BibleDude Store.

You can also check out other stops that Dave Gibbons is making and see what other people have to say about all of this. Visit the post on the Zondervan blog to learn more.

interview: jeanne damoff

Every once in a while a story comes along that simply touches your heart and makes you remember not only how mortal we are, but also how divine God is. Jeanne Damoff‘s book, Parting the Waters, is just one of those stories.

When a tragic drowning accident leaves fifteen-year-old Jacob in a coma, the faith of his family and community is shaken to its foundation. Medical experts used phrases such as “persistent vegetative state” and said, “Jacob will never wake up,” but Jacob’s parents knew God would have the final say.

Without sugar-coating the realities of pain and suffering, Parting the Waters presents the heart-warming, true story of what can happen when a community rallies around one wounded family. While Jacob’s parents struggle to preserve their faith and family, the prayers and innovative efforts of community members result in Jacob’s gradual awakening. Each dramatic milestone in Jacob’s recovery creates a new ripple, touching and changing many lives forever.

I recently had the chance to pick Jeanne’s brain a little bit about her book, and the idea of dealing with tragedy. Here are the results of that interview…

BibleDude: You titled the book Parting the Waters. How did you come up with that as the name?

Jeanne: Because Jacob nearly drowned, I used water imagery and metaphors throughout the book. My original title was Ripples. Parting the Waters was first suggested to me by writer and agent, Deidre Knight, and it grew on me for several reasons. For one thing, there’s the obvious biblical reference to the parting of the Red Sea–a miraculous event that could only be accomplished by God, and yet it required faith and response from His people. I also liked the idea of parting the waters like you might part a curtain–to see what lies behind, to look deeper into something, in this case the purposes of God and the beauty he was creating out of brokenness.

BibleDude: What are the major themes of the book?

Jeanne: Beauty from brokenness. God’s goodness and sovereign purposes in suffering. The body of Christ. The power of community when it works as it should.

BibleDude: What insight did you gain from the process of writing about such a difficult personal experience?

Jeanne: Reliving our experience on the page was excruciating at times, but also very cathartic. I believe it’s good for all Christians to look back on our most difficult times and see how God carried and led us when we felt like we were wandering over jagged shards in a fog. Probably the biggest insight I gained was a deeper assurance that God is in control and I can trust His loving purposes, even when it hurts to breathe.

BibleDude: Did you ever question God through that tragic time in your life, and what helped you to stand strong through all of it?

Jeanne: I never questioned the power or sovereignty of God, but I questioned how this could be His plan for my son. I guess it’s a bit of a paradox, but when I hurt the most and struggled to understand, I also had the strongest sense of God’s loving arms holding me up and keeping my feet firmly planted on the Rock. He worked through many people, churches, businesses, and organizations to provide comfort and support. Ultimately I knew I stood because He kept me standing, sometimes in spite of myself.

BibleDude: What advice do you have for someone who has just entered into a tragic season in in their life?

Jeanne: No matter how angry, sorrowful, or heart-broken you are, fling yourself on God. You may feel like He has let you down, but He is your only source for peace and grace to endure. And He alone can bring you through the valley to a place of acceptance and deeper understanding of His ways. Tragedy didn’t strike you because God is mean or doesn’t care. The Bible clearly teaches that suffering will be part of our experience and is necessary to conform us to the image of Christ. All things work together for our good, but we don’t get to define “good.” Ask God to show you what He is accomplishing in you and others, and be willing to see. Also, please don’t try to do everything yourself. Make your needs known to the body of Christ and your community. We aren’t meant to carry heavy burdens by ourselves. Entering into your tragedy may be an important part of God’s plan for someone else, too.

BibleDude: What do you hope readers will take away from your book?

Jeanne: I hope they will realize more deeply that God loves them and is working out His plans in their lives with perfect faithfulness. Sure we suffer consequences when we make stupid choices, but many of the trials and sorrows we experience have nothing to do with punishment or a lack of faith. They are part of God’s goodness—conforming us to the image of His Son. I hope readers will meet God on the pages of our story and walk away changed by grace.

BibleDude: What has God been teaching you lately?

Jeanne: God is teaching me to rest in His sovereignty and plan. Mine is to daily present my body as a living sacrifice and obey Him in the moment. His is to do everything else.

BibleDude: How and what is Jacob doing now?

Jeanne: Jacob is a precious, happy 27 year old who lives abundantly in spite of his brain injury. Though he wasn’t expected to ever awaken from coma, he walks, talks, laughs, and loves intensely. He spends his weekdays with his long-time aide, Rusty Mauldin, working with his cattle and in his garden, then comes home on the weekends. Jacob worships the Lord with the passion of a lover who is not hindered by self-consciousness. Watching him is like glimpsing eternity.

I highly recommend this book to anyone who is going through a tragic experience in their life. And even if you never have or never will, this is a great story that will touch your heart and bless you. If you don’t believe me, then check out what other bloggers have to say about this book. Otherwise, I encourage you to go to the BibleDude Store, and get your copy of Parting the Waters today!

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